Pierre Deymier: Harmonizing Life and Innovation - Exploring New Sound Frontiers

Announcer 00:00

[Music] Welcome to Wildcat wonder. Where we take you. Inside Arizona research breakthroughs, discoveries and advances happen so often at the University of Arizona, it can be a challenge just to keep up. We'll handle that for you. Join us as we explore the research innovation and awe inspiring work making a societal impact that maintains the U of A's reputation as a global leader. On this episode, meet Pierre Deymier, principal investigator and director of the New Frontiers of sound science and technology center, informally referred to as newfos, based in the Grand Challenges research building on campus, newfos is dedicated to topological acoustics. Their work could vastly improve our lives when it comes to computers, cell phones and other daily technologies. This bio five member and professor of Materials Science and Engineering works long hours, but he's committed to making it fun for everyone involved, including student researchers. Our hosts are Lisa Romero, Associate Vice President of Research communications and marketing and Laine Kowalski, student, writer and content specialist. Now let's turn it over to Lisa and Laine.

Lisa  01:06

Pierre, thank you so much for being with us on this episode of Wildcat wonder, our third episode, we've already had some really great conversations with a few of the amazing people at the U of A and you are one of those. You are on our wish list, and so here you are. So we really appreciate your time. 

Pierre  01:26

It's my pleasure to be here. 

Lisa  01:28

Thank you. I'm going to actually start with inspiring people at the U of A by asking you, 39 years here, what has made you stay? That's a long time. That's a long time for a company, a university in general. I mean, what are the, what are the what is the tie? What's the tie that binds you and has made you stay?

Pierre  01:51

So I'm a person who is very loyal to this institution, and I like very much that institution, the University of Arizona, I joined in 1985, fresh out of my PhD, started as an assistant professor and then moved up the ladder. So I think one thing that kept me interested in working at these universities is the different challenges. So I was initially an assistant professor, then I had the challenge of tenure and becoming an associate professor, and the big challenge, yes, indeed. And then full professor, I became associate department head. So then these were new challenges.

Lisa  02:30

New jobs essentially. 

Pierre  02:31

And then I was director of the School of Sustainable Engineered Systems, which was a federation of five departments in the College of Engineering for several years, and that was another challenge. And I became department head of material science and engineering, and that was another going through this. 

Lisa  02:48

And you weren't done yet! 

Pierre  02:50

And I'm not done yet, I'm now directing the New Frontiers of Sound Science and Technology Center is another challenge. So if you live your professional life through challenges, I think it makes it always exciting and interesting. And I enjoy doing that.

Lisa  03:06

That's so interesting. You said that because I think for me, one of the things I've loved about being at the university is, you know, if you want to take on a new challenge, if you have an idea, if you want to take that next step, everybody's like, go ahead, as long as you're willing to do it, and you know, you have the sustenance for it. I think it's, it's really interesting here. You can kind of create new jobs for yourself, if, if you're willing to put in the work. It sounds like, sounds like what you've done,

Pierre  03:34

That's exactly what I've done, indeed. I mean, you, you have a lot of freedom as a faculty member, and that is up to you as a faculty member to create the opportunities and the challenges that are going to excite you and give you a lot of fun in doing it.

Laine  03:51

How was it like transitioning from material sciences and engineering into being the director of NewFoS?

Pierre  03:57

So it's not really a transition, because the New Frontiers of Sound Science and Technology Center is part of the Department of Materials Science and Engineering. So I started working on this research proposal, first about 10 years ago, and then it took a significant amount of trials to get to receiving that grant. And so it is not separate from the Department of Material Science and Engineering. In fact, we have in the center a number of junior faculty members from material science and engineering, and the center is giving them the opportunity of receiving funding, supervising students and doing research on that topic.

Lisa  04:37

Can you talk a little bit about what our listeners would understand from what you are trying to achieve through the center. 

Pierre  04:45

You think about shape. We think about geometry. And in fact, we're focusing on exploiting some attributes of acoustic wave that have been hidden for some time, and these attributes are related to the geometry of sound. Yeah, or the shape of sound. And this is a kind of an interesting concept, because you know sound, because you hear it, and you hear pitch, you hear frequency effectively, but you have two ears, and one here is listening to sound at one location, and the other ear is locating at the other location. So when you listen to stereo music, for instance, you get a sense of spatial distribution of the source of sound that you're listening to. So you're exploiting your ears to get a sense of the geometry of sound in the space or in the room that you're listening this to music or whatever. So this is the attributes that we're exploiting - the geometry of sound. What are we doing with it? We're exploiting... there is an analogy between the geometry of sound and quantum mechanics, so we're applying it to Quantum Information Science without doing quantum mechanics. So that's one of the traits of our center. The second thing is we also using not sound but seismic waves in the ground, which are effectively sound wave in the ground, and the geometry of the sound wave, or the seismic wave in the ground, to monitor the permafrost in Alaska. So we have a network of seismic sensors to monitor the geometry of seismic wave about 40 miles away from Fairbanks, Alaska, in the boreal forest, in the wilderness. And then we you do the same type of things at the micro scale as well. Your cell phone uses what I call acoustic wave devices, which are micro devices, which are materials that are tailored in specific ways to achieve some specific sound properties. And we modify those properties by modifying the geometry of the sound in those devices. So from very, very micro scale to very, very macro scale,

Lisa  06:50

I know science communication has been at the heart of what you've tried to do all along, really being able to explain what you're doing to the average listener. So as as, as an average listener, what? What is that going to change for me? What is that going to evolve into that might, you know, impact me on a daily level?

Pierre  07:10

So in terms of telecommunication, and these micro devices, acoustic wave devices in your cell phone with 5g you have about 15 of them in your cell phone, and they use power and they are lossy. And what we're trying to do is use the geometry of sound to reduce the loss of those devices, because in the next generation 6g 7g and so on, you're going to need more and more of these devices in your cell phone to filter the signals that the cell phone is receiving. So every time you're going to increase the use of power, and so you need to reduce the loss so your battery is going to to last longer. That's one impact on your everyday. You recharge it yourself very regularly.

Lisa  07:56

Or our devices will explode also!

Pierre  07:59

But if you think about the people who live in the Arctic, for instance, I mean in Alaska, I mean the permafrost thawing is creating havoc on infrastructure. The roads are moving, the buildings are cracking and so on. So if we can monitor the state of the permafrost in a non invasive way, in some ways, and continuous monitoring the state in a continuous manner, then we can warn people. We can check what may be, what we may be able to do to avoid those catastrophes, or those, those catastrophic events associated with the melting of the permafrost. So that's, that's that. I mean, that's on on, but we're not living in the Arctic. Tucson, as far as I know, is still not part of the Arctic. But this technique can be applied also to monitoring other states of the ground, and one of them is, for instance, the dryness of the ground. And we know how important that might be for forest fires, for instance. So we are starting to think also about using these techniques to monitor how dry the ground can be and and be able to predict if files are going to be a problem or not. So these are two of the application in terms of quantum applications, quantum computing applications, I mean, we are not doing quantum mechanics, but there are companies investing billions and billions of dollars in this. And what we're trying to find out is if there is an alternative to that which is cheaper and that avoids the drawback of these quantum technologies, and that's what we're working on. So it's not yet. You don't have a quantum computer on your desk yet, and but maybe you're going to have a topological, acoustic computer on your desktop before the quantum computer. 

Lisa  09:51

Very interesting, wide spectrum of potential applications. So much of your work you know, is complicated and. And as you said, it takes years and years and years to perhaps get a grant and know the specific direction. But throughout all of that, you really like to immerse fun into the work you're doing. Tell us a little bit about that. And I'm asking legitimately, as somebody that needs to figure that out a little bit better

Pierre  10:19

How to find fun...

Lisa  10:22

We all have to work, and we work in a complicated environment. So yeah, what are the ways after all these years of doing this that you've interwoven fun into this work?

Pierre  10:32

So in my case, in the case of research, I mean, it's, it's what makes it fun is this the spirit of discovery. I mean, it's very painful to do research. I mean, people may not realize, people who are not researchers, you spend days and weeks and months trying to do something, and it doesn't work, doesn't work, and so on. But eventually there is this moment of aha, and you have then joy, and you have fun reaching that point. So that's, that's one of them, I mean. And then the rest is, is fun in communicating to students, to post docs, and training them, and telling them, showing them the excitement that you personally feel, and communicating that. That is also a lot of fun.

Lisa  11:18

Yeah, talking about students. And I think you did your undergraduate work in France, right? You're from France? 

Pierre  11:27

Yes, I'm from France. I'm from the South East of France, from Provence. My hometown is near Avignon, the Pope Palace Place. But I did my studies in Montpellier, which is not too far from the Mediterranean coast. And so I got my engineering degree there. And then I married in 1982, and I was 22 years old. And my wife was saying, Maybe we should explore the world a little bit get a job in France as an engineer. So we looked at opportunities, and I had an opportunity to do a PhD or graduate studies at MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. So I went there, and then finished in 1985 three years later, and we moved to Tucson after that.

Laine  12:15

Why did you guys decide to move to Tucson? 

Pierre  12:17

Actually, I applied for several jobs, and I got that position.

Laine  12:22

That makes sense. 

Pierre  12:23

So not knowing, so I'm going to tell you the truth, here. We arrive in Tucson with my wife, and we thought, what is that place? I mean

Lisa  12:33

It's a little different!

Laine  12:33

A little bit yeah!

Pierre  12:34

When you come from Europe and you come from the northeast New England in 1985 I can tell you that story perhaps. I mean, is, so that was March 1985 and that was when I had the interview at the University of Arizona, and we stayed over the weekend, and my wife and I said, "Okay, we're going to go downtown!" in 1985 because in Boston. I mean is we would on weekends, we'd say, Okay, let's go downtown. There is a lot of life. And yeah, so we went downtown Tucson in 1985 and that was on a Sunday, and everything was closed. There was wind, and you see these newspapers that are floating in the streets. It looked like a dead scene after a nuclear blast. Yes, yes. And my wife said what are we doing here, and 39 years later it's a wonderful place. 

Lisa  13:32

It grows on you, huh?

Pierre  13:33

It grows on you, It's a wonderful place to raise a family as well. 

Laine  13:38

So when you did start teaching here, one of the things that you mentioned was the transition between being a student and becoming a faculty member and teaching and having to write proposals that that is very difficult because they don't teach you any of that. So how did you manage that?

Pierre  13:54

So, nobody teaches you that. I mean nowadays, most of the young faculty that are being hired have done post docs. So in a post doc, they learn a little bit how to write proposal, they may support their faculty advisors in teaching and so on. But I came here as of after my PhD, just fresh PhD, and so I had no training. I mean, when you do a PhD, you get no training in teaching style or how to teach students. You get no training in writing, research proposals, none of that. So basically, it is like when someone dumps you in a swimming pool and you don't know how to swim, and they say, go ahead and swim. Your life depends on your ability to swim. So that was it. That was it, a lot of mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes over the years, but now I think I'm making fewer and fewer mistakes so I can at least pass that information to the younger generation, interact with the students and the postdocs. 

Lisa  14:52

Well, we need to take a quick break, and we're going to come right back and talk a little bit more about your work.

Announcer 14:56

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Lisa  15:36

I'd love to follow up with the conversation about students and training. We, one of the reasons we wanted you on the podcast at this time is we just had the grand opening of our Grand Challenges Research Building, which I think is going to be, you know, a game changer for a lot of our centers, in particular, like NewFoS, in terms of what we can do, both scientifically and technologically, but also related to students and training them and integrating them. So maybe talk a little bit about how the building you know is different and will allow you to expand and grow and also teach with a hands on approach. 

Pierre  16:22

Okay, yes, I'll be happy to comment about the opportunity that, effectively, the University of Arizona gave me in working with the architect to design the sixth floor of the Grand Challenges Research Building. At that time, we didn't have the proposal funded, but I think RII was thinking that we may receive that right. And so we were involved with the architect. And so what we did, and some of us, Sara Chavarria, for instance, who is a co PI of the project, and she's in the College of Education, and I and other faculty members, worked with the architect to try to design an environment which is conducive to what is called integrative research. So integrative research means you're not hiding in your office, you're not hiding in your lab, you don't have closed space and so on. So we made it as open as possible. So if you come and visit our sixth floor, you will see that the labs are behind glass walls, so you see what the students are doing, you see what the faculty are doing, what the researchers are doing in the labs. You see the equipment. All the offices have doors, which are have windows. We have interaction space. We designed this interaction space for the community. Our community, NewFoS community, to come together and then interact. The students can interact in small groups. They can interact in large groups and so on. And we have also designed space for undergraduate students to be engaged also in the center in the research. So there is a the eastern part of the of the sixth floor, which is designed for undergraduate students. As part of NewFoS, we have a research experience and mentoring program for undergraduate students. 

Laine  18:13

Oh, that's cool!

Pierre  18:14

So this is engaging students, undergraduate students, and engaging them and also paying them, because we recognize that financial support is very important, especially for underrepresented students. And what we're doing is during the summer, the students are experiencing research. So first they have one week of steep climbing, learning about topological acoustics and what it means in terms of technologies and research and then after that, they go in the lab and they work in teams. These REM program research experience and mentoring programs are happening across the institutions, the partner institutions of NewFoS. So you know that U of A is the lead institution, but we have eight partners, like UCLA, Caltech or Georgia Tech and University of Alaska, Fairbanks, City University New York, so all over the nation. And we're going to have students, we're going to start this summer 2025. Students are going to come from those institutions, come over here, we exchange students with them from the U of A and work with faculty members on research projects. But that's not all, because after that, after eight weeks in the summer, what we are making sure of is that the students are mentored during the fall and the spring semesters. Mentoring is essential for retention. The students can experience research, but they need support and support, not only in terms of their academic activities, but also just as pursuits. I mean when they face challenges,personal challenges, they can turn to a mentor. So during these mentoring activities in the fall, in the fall 2025 and spring 2026 the students are going to be trained and taught professional development as well. So some of the softer skills that they need to succeed succeed in a career as researchers or engineers and so on. And eventually we also send them to a conference, because it's also important to meet the community and see how things are done in academia.

Lisa  20:36

Did you say undergrad level or grad?

Pierre  20:38

Undergrad. Essentially we we had a program, some similar program, on another grant before that, and we loved it so much, and we thought you had so much impact on students, undergraduate students, that we are scaling it up. Having a center enables us to scale it up. Yes, so next year we have eight students participating in the REM program. The year after that, we'll have 16 of them, and then another 16. And so we're trying to effectively create a workforce in topological acoustics that can promote it and take it from university to maybe industry or the outside world.

Laine  21:21

With all of the students you're gathering to get into this field, what advice would you give them? Because your job requires you to work at a very high level all the time. So what's the reality of the job?

Pierre  21:33

So what we're doing, at least for them, is, is the first week, we're training them in training them in using equipment, in learning about topological acoustics. We have a partner at Spelman College in Atlanta, Georgia, who is writing what are called primers, or primers, which are going to enable the students to learn the fundamental concepts that are going to bring them to a level where they can operate in the labs. So that's but, but the advice I would give them is don't give up. Don't give up. I mean, some of our students in the past have faced those challenges, and they made it and so and we are here. I mean, they get full support from faculty members, mentoring, from educators and the people who have a lot of experience in mentoring students to make sure that they stick to it, yes, and they take the challenge and they meet the challenge.

Lisa  22:33

I love to, I mean, you know, and some of them will get to the end of that and realize, you know, that's exactly what they want to do, and then they'll have this great basis and foundation for moving forward, and others will learn the opposite of that. But that's good too, right? I mean, I think that either, either thing is, either outcome is, you know something that we owe our students.

Pierre  23:00

Indeed, indeed, we want to make sure that they we create an awareness, and then they decide on what their future should look like. But at least they make their choice based on this awareness. 

Lisa  23:14

Because today, I mean, you know what they're learning in school. These in these fields, these new fields, these emerging fields, are complicated. And, you know, in high schools, they're not saying, I want to get into X, Y or Z, and know what that even means. I mean, you know, my my youngest daughter, has just graduated from college, and I think she still doesn't really know what she wants to do because she didn't have hands on experience like that. And I won't say what school she went to, but not this one. But, you know, it's interesting to watch today, because the fields are emerging so quickly and becoming so, you know, technologically advanced, that unless we have those opportunities, it's, it's difficult for people to find their way.

Pierre  24:07

So that creates opportunities in terms of an emerging field. That's, that's true. However, the mentoring aspect also is very important for them to find their ways. When we develop, when we teach them how to do professional development, we teach them how to write a CV. So whether you want to become an acoustician in the field of topological acoustics, or then you want to change direction and you want to become someone else doing community work or something, it will not matter for us. What is important is that they find a way, and we provide them with the tools to find their ways. So writing a resume or a CV, doing an elevator speech, I mean a pitch. You have 60 seconds to tell me your summer research experience. Presenting their work as well, and presenting themselves...

Lisa  25:04

Having the confidence to do that.

Pierre  25:06

...in a professional manner and so on, and being told that they they can do what they want to do. And I think these are going to be extremely important soft skills, in addition to technological and scientific and theoretical and fundamental skills that they will gain in the lab. 

Lisa  25:25

True. 

Laine  25:25

Yeah.

Lisa  25:26

Very true. 

Pierre  25:26

So our NewFoS center is really trying to be trans-disciplinary, and not just focused on one aspect, which is research research, but also focus on on human development

Lisa  25:42

The human experience. That's right, that's great. Maybe this is something that keeps you in Tucson now that we've evolved a little bit more here, yes. But I know I heard you're into biking. Is that right? Yeah. Is that what you do to kind of decompress and have a little bit of work life balance? Yes.

Pierre  25:59

Yes, I mean, when you're in this, in these jobs, I mean is, is I consider, I consider myself to be, to be an athlete. I mean a faculty member is an athlete you need to train.

Lisa  26:10

I love that! You're absolutely right, oh my gosh, your right, top of your game.

Pierre  26:16

You write a research proposal. It's like going to the Olympic Games. Yes, most of the time you lose. Yeah, get a medal and so on. So at some point you need to balance also the physical aspect. And biking is a way of evacuating stress, and Tucson is a great place for that. You said it. I like, with my wife, we go biking on the loop, and I do bike when we go back to France. As you said we're French, and we like to bike in France, but they don't have...

Lisa  26:53

The loop! 

Pierre  26:56

...you have cars and trucks, and it's dangerous. Here in Tucson, you can bike for miles or 10s of miles and feel safe and comfortable. So that's that's our current hobby, at some point to keep us sane and in physical shape.

Laine  27:17

So did you ever struggle with the work life balance, especially because you've had to deal with, you know, your job and your family. So how have you kind of managed that?

Pierre  27:25

So when I started the job, my wife told me, you're not going to work on weekends.

Laine  27:32

That's a good policy.

Pierre  27:35

But that was then. I mean, in the 1980s it was a little bit different. Now, work life balance is... 

Lisa  27:44

Blurred, blurry lines.

Pierre  27:46

...yes and it's more accepted than then, but we had two young children, and we needed to spend the time with them. I mean, if you don't spend the time with your children, you're not doing it right, because they grow so fast. So weekends were not about work. The rest of the week was about work. But weekends were not.

Laine  28:08

And you've kept you've tried to keep that going through?

Pierre  28:11

I keep that going yes, yes. So now I have two grandchildren! So I try to spend time with them.

Lisa  28:17

You do! Are they here?

Pierre  28:17

One of them is in Tucson, the other one is in the northeast, so, but one of them is a Tucson the father is my son, yeah, and he works at the University of Arizona.

Lisa  28:28

Oh really I didn't know that!

Pierre  28:29

He works in the Genomic Center, so it's part of RII. Okay?

Lisa  28:38

I will have to find out who that is. I don't I did not know that. That's very cool. Yeah, you're right. I mean, that work life balance is a challenge for so many, including me. I'm not gonna look at Craig because he's probably rolling his eyes at me right now, but it is I love that you've made that a priority, and you've tried to stick with that.

Laine  29:00

It should be a priority.

Lisa  29:01

Yeah, it should. It should.

Pierre  29:04

It's a question of efficiency as well. At work, what I find is, is when you work, you need to work 100% give 100% to your work that way, then you have free time for your life. Yeah, outside work.

Lisa  29:22

Well, it sounds like you're doing well at both right now. Again, congratulations on the new building and how well the center is doing. We're really looking forward to seeing the, you know, the work and the results that come out of the center and how they will, you know, really change the way that we work and live and how we do things, and I personally am even more excited to see sort of the educational programming that you just described. That's kind of a piece of my heart. I used to work at the bio five Institute. I think you know that, and you know we had the keys program and other programs. I'm similar to that, and you know, that was always one of the highlights for me, because again, you can actually see the results of your work. You can see these children grow and these young adults grow and change and right in front of you, and I guess at the at the end of the day, we're at a university, and that's what we should be doing. 

Laine  30:20

That's how you know you've done your job, right? Yeah.

Lisa  30:21

That's right. So thank you for spending time with us and for all you do.

Pierre  30:27

Thank you for the opportunity of talking about new frontiers of sound, and trying to maybe inspire some younger minds...

Lisa  30:33

That's right

Pierre  30:34

...in working in topological acoustics or working in academia as well.

Lisa  30:37

That's right, and we will be practicing our our pronunciation after this interview, but thank you again, we really appreciate it.

Pierre  30:49

Thank you.

Announcer 30:50

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Wildcat wonder, the podcast where we take you inside Arizona. Research. If you enjoyed what you just heard, just send it to a friend colleague, or may be shared on social media. Remember to follow the office of research innovation and impact on your favorite platforms, and if you have a good suggestion for a person or project to feature on an upcoming episode, email research@arizona.edu, Bear Down!